Meeting documents

17 WELCOME AND INTRODUCTIONS

The Chair welcomed everyone to the meeting and introduced the Panel members. The Chair thanked members of the public for their substantial input so far and confirmed that the Panel had considered all written submissions they had received.

18 EMERGENCY EVACUATION PROCEDURE

The Chair(person) drew attention to the emergency evacuation procedure as set out on the Agenda.

19 DECLARATIONS OF INTEREST

Penny Coatsworth - Bath Chamber of Commerce, declared an interest regarding the possible siting of the autoloo at Charlotte Street.

Councillor Sarah Webb declared an interest in suffering from a bowel complaint.

20 TO ANNOUNCE ANY URGENT BUSINESS AGREED BY THE CONVENOR

There was none.

21 ITEMS FROM THE PUBLIC OR COUNCILLORS - TO RECEIVE DEPUTATIONS, STATEMENTS, PETITIONS OR QUESTIONS RELATING TO THE BUSINESS OF THIS MEETING

Mr F. Blampied made a statement:

"I am a resident of Saltford and need to use the toilet as a visitor to Bath as do others. I accept this is not a legal requirement of the Local Authority but it is important. There are two public conveniences in Saltford, one services the river, picnic area and anglers. The other at Manor Road, proposed for closure, is opposite the library, A4 road and other local services. The survey (Appendix 7) found that 26% of users were drivers, there are no signs on the road for public conveniences, the block is covered in ivy, however the problems of vandalism have lessened and the lighting improved."

Mr Edmund Tan (Weston Resident) made a statement:

A copy of this statement is available for inspection on the Councils minute book which is held at Democratic Services, Riverside, Keynsham.

"My belief is that in the highly residential area of Weston, the public order issues associated with the public convenience far outweigh any benefit they may offer. I would strongly support maintaining loos in the city centre and public spaces such as parks. The loos in Weston only serve about 7 shops, alternative facilities exist in local pubs. The silent majority in Weston want the loos closed, the facilities attract a range of social issues as bees are attracted to a honey pot. There is litter, noise and drunken behaviour and also the physical threat. What is intolerable is the drugs issue, the link between drugs and crime is rock solid. Please close Weston loos".

Mr Willshire (National Chair & local branch secretary of the Urostomy Association) made a statement:

"The Urostomy Association represents people who have had surgery to remove the bladder. People have to wear an appliance and it is imperative that they can empty these. Public conveniences should remain open as we need to use these as a medical necessity. Before you determine you should consider the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) which includes facilities for disabled users, I ask you to bear this in mind."

The Panel asked the following question:

Panel - How many times do you have to empty bag?

Mr Willshire - It depends on the fluid intake, however we have to drink copious amounts of fluid to prevent infections.

Councillor P.Gay submitted a question:

A copy of this question is available for inspection on the Councils minute book which is held at Democratic Services, Riverside, Keynsham.

Public Toilets are important to the people of Radstock. With the future of the centre of Radstock in the balance the people are concerned to preserve the facilities that they have. It is not good enough to say that the provision at the Tom Huyton Park is available because this involves the crossing of several major roads. We would like to think that the toilet provision in Radstock would remain in abeyance as to such time as the future of the centre of the town is known and a proper consultative process has been carried out with the people. Would the officer please comment on this?

Answer prepared by officers:

The Council is aware that there is considerable concern being raised by Ward Councillors, Town & Parish Councils, various community groups and the general public to the proposed closures.

It has been difficult to identify the sites to be closed. But by taking into consideration all issues relating to the standard of service presently provided at each of the 37 sites Council-wide and the criteria for closure set by Council in November 2001, the 16 sites selected for proposed closure were chosen.

Mr Johnson made a statement:

"I compliment members on taking us from the 21^st Century to the Stone-age. Based on the one day survey I question the validity of the results. Summer days are longer with more users and the survey presents a false picture. Notices of the Council's intentions were posted in public conveniences, the park is used by adults and children, there is a large school opposite Alexandra Park and there are no alternatives to the public conveniences. The men's urinal is not well supervised and is neglected. I don't know how you quantify needs, closures are indefensible, frivolous and a complete waste of time and I oppose the closure."

The Panel asked the following question:

Panel - Is there a children's play area in the park?

Mr Johnson - Yes

Mr Darth made a statement (Bath taxi driver):

"I have spoken to many taxi drivers and nobody knew about this meeting, I heard of it by accident. The loo in Alexander Park is used a lot, in Saltford the loo is not signposted, Weston loos are most comfortable. They all close too early for us. I would like to know if you are going to oblige businesses to open their loos to the public? Bath is a world heritage city and it is embarrassing to explain to passengers about the Bath Spa, it would be even worse if there were no public loos as well".

Mr D Seamore made a statement:

"I use Alexandra Park and walk my dog there three times a day. In summer the park is crowded with picnickers and children. Bear Flat public conveniences are closed and there is nothing nearby, people will be limited. Closures will change the structure of how the park is used. If you close toilets it will become like a corridor train. Will you change the law to provide human pooper scoopers?"

The Chair thanked all members of the public and Councillors who had made statements/asked questions.

22 PUBLIC LOO REVIEW

The Chair explained that the Panel would now hear from invited contributors and ask any questions on issues they need clarification on.

A copy of this statement is available for inspection on the Councils minute book which is held at Democratic Services, Riverside, Keynsham.

"Bath & North East Somerset has been attempting to resolve the issue of public conveniences through a series of reports to various Committee's since 1998. I have a list of the reports considered and the resolutions made. We now have the 2003/04 budget and efficiency savings must be made - this may mean the closure of some public conveniences. There were eight Committee resolutions since 1998 but Council budget priorities have now taken precedent. The Executive member referred the issue to this Panel for wider consultation. The focus is to provide public convenience provision to make Bath and North East Somerset live, work and visit."

A copy of this statement is available for inspection on the Councils minute book which is held at Democratic Services, Riverside, Keynsham.

"Cleaning Schedules: Of the 16 public conveniences listed for closure, 12 are visited twice and 4 are visited three times a day, the Royal Victoria Park toilet is checked again in the summer. This in addition to the two visits to lock and unlock. The service is provided 7 days a week. The standard cleaning routine at each visit, monthly and other maintenance done as required. Standards are not clearly specified but we are addressing this through the drafting of method statements.

The problems for staff that clean and maintain services include:

Physical problems: homeless people sleeping in toilets, used syringe needles, vandalism, dog mess, graffiti, broken bottles, many blockages due to cans etc being placed in toilets, dead bodies (e.g. Lansdown Road)

Misuse: drug and drink related problems, sexual activity and theft of consumables

Behavioural & safety problems: Gangs of youths, drug users hanging around when staff try to clean or lock up, staff being subject to aggressive or abusive behaviour and staff being attacked by people and dogs

Other issues: Health & Safety and parking issues at a number of sites, staff turnover is high and this does impact on the quality of the service. Staff feel they are blamed for low standards.

Positive measures: Liaison with the police, blue lights have been introduced but this creates displacement problems as containment of drug use is reduced, Staff training and supervision has increased and standards have generally improved.

Impacts of staff of toilets closing: Currently there are 8 staff. There would be a loss of income to the Cleansing service of £117,546 p.a. if the proposed closure of 16 sites went ahead. £60,089 would be the staff related costs which equates to 3.12 posts. It would not be possible to clean the remaining toilets with a staffing level of less than 5. There would be a loss of contribution to the Council as a result of closures which equates to £26,248 which has not been included in the `savings' calculation. We would not anticipate any staff redundancies as a result of closure as the staff turnover is high.

Parks issues: 5 of the proposed closures are situated in or near to parks and open spaces and this is a particular reason to reconsider the proposed closures. Parks offer amenities to all and public conveniences are essential in the area. Fully automated public conveniences are not options. Parks will suffer and effect people we are trying to encourage. The Concessionaire of the Royal Pavillion cafe has said he will fit keypads to toilets. In Henrietta Park the drug misuse is contained in the public convenience. As a professional park manager we should not remove the one thing that makes the park inclusive, public conveniences.

Inge Shepherd, Community Safety and Drug Action Teams

A copy of this statement is available for inspection on the Councils minute book which is held at Democratic Services, Riverside, Keynsham.

"Various speakers have mentioned some community safety issues regarding public conveniences, including vandalism, drug use, homelessness and sexual behavior. Section 17 of the Crime and Disorder Act states that the impact of crime and disorder issues must be taken into account when decisions are made by authorities. The issue of drug use in public conveniences is very difficult to solve, it is estimated that there are 1,400 people with substance misuse problems and 500 people injecting in the City. We have taken some measures to address the dangers such as providing sharps boxes for needles and installing blue lights. There are some problems with these measures as the blue lights reduce light levels which are not in line with the Disability Discrimination Act. The is an issue that if public conveniences are closed, drug use may be displaced to more open air localities and cause more danger to the public".

M.Smith - I accept this, there are issues around staff turnover, we use a lot of agency staff. We intend to agree method statements with waste services - hopefully by next spring.

Contributor Session 2: Retailers & Businesses

"I represent the Bath Nightclub Association which represents the views of proprietors. We are often criticised for the behaviour of our customers urinating in the street, however the Council now wants to close the toilets. Urination is a social problem, as prosecution is unlikely. We can encourage people to use our toilet facilities before they leave and are happy to display notices. If we were to have an announcement on the PA system we must be careful of the negative effect this could have and it's a shared view that clubs wouldn't be happy to do this. It's not feasible to ask door-staff to remind people to use toilets before they leave and risk them looking foolish. As a group we support a zero tolerance approach to urination in the street where there is a consequence of being arrested and fined as a deterrent."

A copy of this statement is available for inspection on the Councils minute book which is held at Democratic Services, Riverside, Keynsham.

"We have tried over the past 4 years to encourage retailers to offer their facilities and keep them in good condition. A culture change is needed as it is not usual for retailers in this country to do so - this will take time. Feedback from tourists over the past 10 years has shown that poor facilities rate high in their complaints, although the Pump Rooms loo's are praised. We are aware of the 16 proposed closures and we think 3 should stay open: Pulteney Road, Henrietta Park and Royal Victoria Park Pavillion. We think you should close those that are too difficult to adapt and concentrate in providing good facilities in other areas. No city has enough public conveniences but it is a visitor management objective to provide high quality information and facilities. In conclusion we would say that although charging is not allowed but there is a way of getting money for using facilities, we should fund facilities when the Christmas market is on and you should put up for `Loo of the Year Award' for one of our loos - this would raise staff morale".

David Evans, Norton Radstock Chamber of Commerce

A copy of this statement is available for inspection on the Councils minute book which is held at Democratic Services, Riverside, Keynsham.

"We represent nearly 200 businesses within the NR District. The Chamber opposes the closure of the Victoria Square toilets. Radstock is an important historical market town for tourism, it may appear to be small but it is important historically and currently as a transport centre, and provides a series of walking trails. The town is also on the major thoroughfare from Bath to Wells. Radstock will shortly be joining the Sustrans National Cycle Route 24. Public and businesses strongly opposed to closure of public conveniences and query why Radstock was chosen. Whilst quality of service may not be high, the toilets are in better condition than some not on the closure list and the quality could be quickly improved. I have not heard of reports of crime/social problems in the area. There maybe a lack of disabled access which should be a reason for improving, not closing the toilet.

The Chamber is in discussion with the Norton Radstock Regeneration Company (NRRC) and Town Council on ways of regenerating Radstock such as Farmers market, Gala Day and a Christmas Market in 2004. The closure would have a serious impact on whether these should progress if there were no public toilet facilities. The Somerset Guardian published the proposed plan for regeneration and the closure of the Radstock loos. What message does that sent out to potential partners, investors and stakeholders? I would suggest keeping the loo open and work with NRRC to improve such a facility within Radstock. "

A statement from Jollys, 13 Milsom Street was received

A copy of this statement is available for inspection on the Councils minute book which is held at Democratic Services, Riverside, Keynsham.

"It is apparent the proposed closures would have very little impact on Jollys due to the location of the toilets. We have 3 public toilets in store which are very well used by the public. These conveniences increase foot flow into the store and have a positive impact on our trade. Extra visitors to the store as a result of the toilet closure would be very welcome. It is essential that sufficient measures are in place so the closures do not encourage anti-social characters and drug users to relocate their activities to areas in the vicinity of Jollys and other retailers. "

The Panel asked the following questions:

Panel - Do you know how many people arrive by coach to Bath?

P Coatsworth - I can obtain them. Most arrive at Riverside Coach Park, Bath. We recommend that the loos should be improved and made more welcoming.

Panel - How do you perceive the closure of public conveniences affecting nighttime trade when the hours of closure are currently 7pm?

P Andrews - It won't have much effect. If closed completely it may encourage people to urinate more freely.

Panel - Do people come and use your toilets?

P Andrews - We allow people to use the public house toilets. Night club requires people to pay on entry, people can pay deposit to use toilet, but this is infrequent.

Panel - Do you know about franchising, for example the Royal Victoria Park Toilets?

P Coatsworth - Most recent research by the Chamber on Franchising was in 1999. Unless the contract was outside local authority and a tendered contract part of cleansing it is a way of getting a franchise element in the authority. The Council's cleansing services are in house and few are put out to tender and therefore there are problems.

Panel - What about sponsorship of toilets?

P Coatsworth - This angle has not been pursued by the Chamber. The difficulty is staffing? You may be able to get sponsorship for specific elements.

Panel - Is it possible for people who are part of a franchise to charge people?

P Coatsworth - I am led to believe this is so. But it depends on Council property. People are happy to pay if it is clean and safe.

Panel - Would Chamber be willing to work with the Council to find a way forward?

P Coatsworth - I would like to discuss this with the Chamber before I commit.

Panel - Are there any models of best practice in Europe?

P Andrews - Prefer an attendant which is always comforting. It will also benefit the person who is running it.

P Coatsworth - We investigated Salisbury which has two toilets staffed from 10 - 6.30pm and between 10am-2pm there are baby changing facilities. It took 5 years before they gained reliable staff.

D Evans - Yes. Salisbury model is the best.

Panel - Disappointed that night clubs can't find support to place posters reminding people to use the loo before they leave.

P Andrews - We are happy to put up notices as displayed in the Bath Chronicle but it's not appropriate to give them a verbal reminder when they leave as it gives the wrong perception. Announcing over the PA is down market.

Panel - Have you considered putting toilets out to tender?

R Robertson - We are not considering out sourcing at this time until the Waste Plan is reviewed in 2006.

Panel - Could you have looked at other options before proposing closure of 16 loos?

R Robertson - By 2006 provision of auto-loos would be established. If members wished to outsource officers would be committed to this.

Panel - Would night clubs be willing to sponser a mobile urinal?

P Andrews - We are in favour of mobile urinals but we currently pay pretty high rates, although we are keen to improve public perception of our establishments' impact on the city.

Panel - Have you been consulted on autoloos?

P Andrews - No knowledge of the location of them.

Panel - Do you think people would pay if doorways are always available?

P Andrews - The problem is the lack of fear of sanction. If mobile urinals were conveniently located it may help.

Contributor Session 3: Public Health

Dr Keiran Morgan, Director of Public Health, Primary Care Trust

"There may be some health consequences of the proposals, one impact might be that people may be forced to go to the loo in public as this may encourage the spread of communicable disease although it would be a low risk as alternative facilities exist. Another impact might be that injecting drug users are displaced from public conveniences and contaminated needles may be found in open places - this risk is deemed to be significant.

In terms of the impact on individuals, an obvious potential difficulty is for people with incontinence of there are a high number in the general population. These symptoms affect up to 15% of people to some degree over the age of 40 years, the incidence of problems rises with age. This significantly affects people's lives and they may depend on public conveniences. The extent of the affect of these proposals is a matter of judgement".

The Panel asked the following questions:

Panel - We are told there are health issues around urination, we are told to wash our hands etc... are you saying it is not a health hazard?

K.Morgan - Urination in public is not a major health hazard, a litterbin would be more of a threat. It is very unusual for human feces to be on the streets - it is a matter of judgement for the Panel if you think this would happen as a result of the proposals. I would be concerned that drug misuse would be driven onto the street, this could cause dangers.

Panel - There are medical aspects to the proposed closures, there are people with mobility issues, children, the elderly, pregnant woman, people with diabetes - how would these people be affected?

K.Morgan - There is an argument for a public convenience on every street. The people you mention above may have problems if loos are closed, some disabled people may stop going out because of it. It is a matter of judgement for the Panel, it is a difficult judgement.

Panel - How often to needle users inject per day?

K.Morgan - An addict will start to get withdrawal symptoms up to 4-6 hours after injecting, this will become severe after 8 hours. They probably inject twice a day. There are 10 or 12 needle outlets in and around Bath.

Contributor Session 4: MSS Market Research

A copy of this presentation is available for inspection on the Council's minute book which is held at Democratic Services, Riverside, Keynsham.

This research was conducted as part of the Overview & Scrutiny Panel's commitment to wider consultation for proposed changes to public conveniences provision. A total of 193 on street interviews were conducted. The background, methodology and overall findings were presented to the Panel.

The Panel asked the following questions:

Panel - How confident are you that people knew you were asking about the toilets being closed?

Sara Davies - I was given a list of public toilets. I can go back and check with the interviewers as I don't know where the interviewers were positioned.

Panel - How much time were you asked to spend in Bath?

Sara Davies - 30% or people interviewed were from outside Bath i.e. Radstock or Saltford

Panel - A high proportion of the sample had not used public conveniences for some time, how much weight do you give to this evidence?

Sara Davies - It is better to get opinions of general population rather than just those who use them.

Panel - The presentation suggested people are willing to pay is this correct?

Sara Davies - Yes, people are agreeable to pay per visit if there is an acceptable level of cleanliness.

Panel - Did people say if they would use public conveniences?

Sara Davies - We did not ask the question.

Contributor Session 5: Users

Mr Lufkin Skeet, Chair Health and Social Care Action Group - Action for Pensioners

A copy of this statement is available for inspection on the Councils minute book which is held at Democratic Services, Riverside, Keynsham.

"We welcome the recognition given by the Council that the 37 public conveniences are of low quality. There has been four decades of poor management and funding. We are concerned that the current strategy is dominated by the need to reduce operational costs yet this is an essential public service. The Council should investigate: comparable facilities such as Heathrow Airport, Salisbury and York; charging fees - 20p and the use of sanitary wardens".

Helen Duddon, Access B&NES

"I have seen people visibly using drugs at 5.45pm, the blue lights need to be brighter for people with visual disabilities and diabetics need to be able to administer their medication in toilets. In the disabled toilets in Ham Gardens syringes and blood have been found all over the floor. RADAR keys have been sold on the black market. Jollys is not very accessible. How will people know where other toilets are? The toilets at the bus station have been closed because of abuse. Steam cleaning could be used to make a difference, community wardens could be used. Attendants could discourage users. Do not close because of drug abuse the problem won't go away. Some people are being excluded from using the conveniences."

Rae Harris, Living Streets (Pedestrian Association)

A copy of this statement is available for inspection on the Councils minute book which is held at Democratic Services, Riverside, Keynsham.

"The Council has virtually no pedestrian routes as such, and no Public Realm Strategy. The nearest the Council has to a network of walking routes is described in the `Why not walk' booklet, 6 of the 14 public conveniences mentioned are on the Council's hit list (including 3 on the leading city centre walk) and of these I think the public would particularly miss the ones in Seven Dials and Henrietta Park. As a local resident I would like to say that the toilets outside the Podium were boarded up and the public demolished them - what will happen to other public conveniences if they are closed? Also is the Council exploring flexible solutions such as putting temporary loos on the site in Walcot Street when demand is heavy? Finally, the Council wishes to attract visitors so it must ensure that there is an appropriate range of public conveniences, based on a better understanding of pedestrian flows".

The Panel asked the following questions:

Panel - Are autoloos the solution?

H.Duddon - Anything that provides a public service. I would have difficulties but I would have a go. The problem is the drunken people do not use toilets - Bath is being used as a dustbin.

Panel - What is your opinion on the blue lights in toilets?

H.Duddon - I am blind so I am used to the dark. Things could be improved. We are catering for drug users, pandering to a small minority. I agree with displacement, we should put up a sign `drug users only'.

Panel - An alternative is to make use of private facilities - what is your view?

L.Skeet - Will the Council offer these establishments a reduction on their Council Tax?

Panel - As a pensioner, do you think B&NES good value for money and are the public convenience closures causing great concern to you?

L.Skeet - The Council offers good value for money but there is room for improvement and improvement depends on the tourist trade which is vital for our economy. What picture does people urinating in the street paint for a World Heritage City? The Council, with the police and NHS need to identify a location in the city centre for drug addicts to use and they should be prosecuted if they leave needles on the floor.

Panel - Do you have any experience of autoloos?

R.Harris - No but this was mentioned at an Action for Pensioners meeting, people were concerned about the complexity of autoloos, they are not necessarily the answer that everyone thinks they are.

Panel - Is there any guidance produced regarding facilities on walking routes?

R.Harris - We have no policy on this issue but I will draw it to the attention of the Association.

Contributor Session 6: Ward, Parish and Town Councillors

Councillor Colin Barrett - Weston Ward Councillor

A copy of this statement is available for inspection on the Council's minute book which is held at Democratic Services, Riverside, Keynsham.

"It is regrettable that the previous Council Executive's proposed the £100,000 budget cut. Rather than preventing the closure of the Weston toilet block in my ward, I suggest some areas of the public convenience budget could be reviewed to prevent closures. It's accepted that there are some toilets that should be closed. However some don't need to be closed, including in my ward.

The further areas that could be reviewed are: (1) the labour costs at Ham Gardens and Riverside Coach Park with manned attendants are approximately £60,000 p.a, which seems high. The attendants at Riverside Coach Park could be reduced out of season. (2) The council could liaise with Wessex Water to introduce energy efficiency measures to reduce the water bills. London Road, Batheaston uses over £2,217 p.a. of water compared to Weston which is £97 p.a. (3) The panel may wish to suggest that the Executive examines which council department uses the water. I have a suspicion that the Parks department uses the water that is metered to the public conveniences pushing up the cost; and (4) Consider cleaning staff using a different mode of transport. Previously mopeds have been used and could be used in the future. Cleaning chemicals could be stored in the toilet blocks.There is a need to look at costs more closely before any closures are made."

Councillor Hattie Ajderian - Paulton Ward Councillor

"The public conveniences in Paulton are not in a good condition and not really accessible but they are a valued resource for the village for both the old and young. We have local shops but they do not provide toilet facilities. Some people are concerned, some `outraged' at the proposal to close the loos, village loos may not rank highly for the Council but they are very important to the villagers. There are no public safety issues in the loos in Paulton. A public convenience makes a place liveable".

Councillor Timothy Bullamore - Weston Ward Councillor

A copy of this statement is available for inspection on the Council's minute book which is held at Democratic Services, Riverside, Keynsham.

"Mr Tan lives next door to the toilets. Don Foster MP has only received two representations requesting that the Weston toilets are closed. The rationale is the Council could not achieve overall saving as proposed. The moving on the presence of drug users is not a solution it is displacement. Where would they go - playing fields, gardens? It was said that urine is not a risk to health but there was a cholera outbreak in 1942. Weston's loos fail to meet the criteria for closure. Council's provide public services which are not based on how many people are using them. Closing the toilets does not solve the drug problem. There is no need to close Weston's toilets".

Councillor Roger Symonds - Combe Down Ward Councillor

A copy of this statement is available for inspection on the Council's minute book which is held at Democratic Services, Riverside, Keynsham.

"As the Executive Member that considered this issue last year and sat on the Council's Waste Management Sub-Committee, the quality of the public conveniences was the only reason why the Best Value Review of Waste Services was not the best in the country. The present budget for toilet cleaning is insufficient to keep the toilets in a good condition. Some closures would have little effect e.g. Lansdown Road and Newbridge Hill. Advertising space could be used in toilets to reduce costs and temporary toilets could be provided at night and removed in the morning. Panel does not have to recommend cuts, we could keep the same budget, make the obvious closures and raise quality and improve the quality of the provision. Need to find out how budget is spent and ways to make efficiency savings. We shouldn't close toilets in parks but look at reduction in reduced or seasonal opening hours. Improvements to Avon Street toilet should be examined as improvements would create a good impression to visitors. There are too many proposed closures in Widcombe. It doesn't make sense to close the only public toilet ion Weston. The toilets are only 10 years old. Toilets are on the National Trust's (NT) skyline walk and the NT has not been consulted. The Rainbow Wood toilet should be kept open."

Councillor Brian Barrett - Paulton Ward Councillor

A copy of this statement is available for inspection on the Council's minute book which is held at Democratic Services, Riverside, Keynsham.

"I would like the Panel to consider the letters to Councillor Todd and Richard Robertson and the persistent failure of Direct Services to unlock and maintain the Batheaston toilets since November 2001. Have the toilets already been closed before a decision has been made?

The Parish Council rejects the criteria as applied to Batheaston toilets and considers this facility as important for residents and other visitors. The toilet is situated adjacent to the Car Park which is used as a mini park and ride. The disabled access is perfectly adequate provided it is unlocked and maintained. There is no evidence of drug related problems although evidence of petty vandalism. We have a strategy in place to reduce the vandalism by reducing the height of the roadside wall which we will pay for and in partnership with the Council we are paying to employ Youth workers in January 2004. We wanted to install CCTV but advised by the Council that there is no vandalism in the area; I suggest this is a failure of communications between B&NES and the police.

The closure of the toilets would be a loss of our amenities, the use of the pub's toilets would not be acceptable nor do they have disabled facilities. Closure could result in urination in gardens, car park or river. We are positive to working with the Council to keep the toilets open and to reduce the costs. Closure would lead to deterioration and demolition at a cost of over £17,000."

The Panel asked the following questions:

D.Lavington - Don't close loos because of misuse, we try to tackle the problems instead. The gardens in Batheaston are vandalised more than the toilets.

B.Barrett - In Paulton there are some anecdotal reports but I have seen no evidence.

P.Edwards - The Lib Dems voted for the cuts in the budget.

T.Bullamore - The budget is an enormous document, there is a difference between savings and cuts.

R.Symonds - The budget went through and nobody raised this issue.

Panel - (to Cllr Lavington) You have put forward a proposal - what is the cost to the Parish?

D.Lavington - this needs to be discussed, we think we can save you half of what you are spending at the moment.

Service clarification

The Panel asked the following questions of the Waste Management Services officers:

Panel - Do you have to have a certain footfall to make pay-to-use toilets cost- effective? Are you able to consider a different method of cleaning? Why do some toilet blocks use more electricity than others?

R. Robertson - If entrance fees of 20p were paid per visit would it would depend on footfall. It would only generate £2k income in some loos. The cleansing service works to contract specifications but we are moving towards a `method statement'. The issue of steam cleaning can be revisited. I am unsure of the details of planning consent. I am not aware of figures on electricity costs presented by Councillor C. Barrett but I will find out the details.

G.Cornelius - Ham Gardens is a larger, heavily used block, used 24 hours and therefore uses more electricity and water.

Panel - Why do two people travel in a van?

R. Robertson - Because they attend male and female toilets and for safety reasons.

G. Cornelius - It is the way the department organises its staff.

I contacted Customer Services at Sainsbury's, Bath and they explained that they are committed to keeping the installed blue lights which has been successful in preventing problems.

Panel - Why don't some premises pay council tax or water rates?

G. Cornelius - Some premises are not of a rateable value as they are sited in parks.

Panel - Do they use the same water supply for watering the gardens?

G. Cornelius - It is possible.

Panel - What is the estimated cost of the closures?

R. Robertson - My understanding I that sales will be balanced against closure costs but this has not been valued yet.

Panel - From Councillor Bullamore's perspective, the criteria for closing Weston's loo's is flawed, what levels of complaints have you received?

R. Robertson - The level of complaints were recorded by Direct Services in June 2003. Measures have been taken to improve facilities and reduce problems and police concerns.

Panel - Does the Weston public conveniences have disabled access?

R. Robertson -The situation is that all the council buildings are subject to a review of disabled access by Property Services to ensure all buildings comply with the DDA. The estimated cost of these improvements to the public conveniences is £11,640 plus additional overheads. The cost of making these changes to Alexandra Park, Bath id £20k, Victoria, Radstock is £17k and Parade Gardens, Radstock is £76k.

Panel - Why has Batheaston toilet been closed?

G. Cornelius - The toilet has not been closed at our request, there may be operational problems.

Panel - Is it reasonable to assume that the review undertaken, to obtain savings to achieve financial balance, have taken into account the number of people using the facilities?

R. Robertson - The criteria was agreed by the Planning, Transportation & Environment Committee. The list of proposed closures is based on the criteria and identified by the cost of running the facilities against the requirement of the reduction in the Council budget.

Panel - If 16 loos do close and new auto loos installed surely water costs would be astronomical?

R. Robertson - We have costs of operating loos and need to make direct comparison between running costs and water costs against other facilities.

Panel - What about selling loos?

R. Robertson - Regeneration proposals through scheme that community facilities would include public conveniences.

Panel discussion

The Chair asked the Panel members to give their initial view on the issues and the following themes were identified to be explored in an adjourned session:

- Drug and related safety issues including staff safety

- Toilets in parks

- Budgets concerns - regarding criteria and closure prioritization

- Levels of cleanliness and maintenance provided by Direct Services

- Public health concerns

- Consideration of needs in rural areas and Bath city centre

- Up-grading conveniences to Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) standards

- Prioritise loos that should not be closed

- Alternative hours/ seasonal hours of opening

- Auto-public conveniences and User charging

- What will happen to sites if closed?

- Franchising opportunities

- Market Research Data

Following an adjournment, the Panel reconvened on Tuesday 25^th November 2003

The Chair welcomed everybody to this adjourned session of the meeting, it was explained that in the last part of the meeting the Panel heard from a wide variety of sources on the issue of public conveniences.

The Chair explained that this session was for Panel members to give their view on the issue and, along with a substantial body of submissions gathered, the themes picked out by the Panel at the end of the meeting on 21^st November and threads subsequently explored, would be passed on to the Executive Member in a report from the Panel.

Panel members each gave their view on the issue:

Councillor Chris Cray

It must be borne in mind that we have had the highest responses to an overview and scrutiny issue for a long time. I have read or listened to all the submissions and I do not believe that the closure of 16 public conveniences has been thought out correctly, I believe the criteria is wrong. There has been too much emphasis on the drug issue and not enough on the other users. In the rural area there are fewer public conveniences - these are essential, the one at Radstock is widely used and it would be a folly to close it down. The Council has a moral obligation to residents and tourists to provide public conveniences. This is an area of service that is grossly under funded and this trend should be reversed. All the arguments for closure are very well until you get somebody with a medical problem, I think we should send this back to the Executive and say that no public conveniences should close at the present time and they should take on board the public feeling, look at their budgets and maybe when this area is revisited, only a couple of closures need take place. My position is that we owe it the ratepayers to stop closures until this has been thought through.

Councillor Caroline Roberts

I have taken account of all the submissions - they were helpful as some of the issues that were raised, I had not thought of before. I don't think any should be closed if at all possible, even when there is only a small need. In conclusion I think there may be an argument for a few to close if alternatives are found but this needs to be looked at a lot more closely. I think this should be sent back to the Executive for them to look at the issues that were highlighted to us - I hope for fewer closures and a rise in standards.

Councillor Peter Edwards

We are fortunate to have so much information in front of us. This area was grossly under funded from the start. In an ideal world there would be no closures, I hope there will not be 16. There needs to be an exercise in sifting through all the information we have gathered and costs of water and energy monitored - some public convenience money is subsidizing the parks. The police should be consulted more on the drug misuse situation in pubic conveniences. I believe the budgets should be revisited and a complete view taken as to whether public conveniences are made more pleasant and accessible.

Councillor Ruth Griffiths

There has always been outcry in Bath about the public conveniences, because it is not a statutory duty of the Council it has had low investment. I am not convinced that they should all be kept open but decisions on closures should be based on need, not cost. I am concerned about disabled access - we have a duty to provide access from 2004 (Disability Discrimination Act) and it would cost £400,000 if all 16 were made accessible. If we want upgraded public conveniences and if the Executive reconsider their position, the public must realize that this may lead to a rise in Council Tax.

Councillor Steve Willcox

There are many issues to consider. Bath & North East Somerset has a duty as a heritage site to provide visitor facilities. The conveniences in the city center must be looked at by their usage because if they are removed, they will not be reinstated. I was disappointed that the police were not involved, especially on the issues of vandalism and drug misuse. Council budget savings have been going on for years yet nobody has looked at the possibility of an outside contractor. I think the budget needs to be looked at and the decision must be re-addressed.

Councillor Sarah Webb

There is a need for these public conveniences, they were put there for a reason and the reason has not gone away. They should all remain open unless they fall into disrepair and are not used - this is not the case with the 16. I acknowledge the budget pressures but this service has been under funded for years. Other cities spend more on public conveniences (eg. Chester and York), the officers have done their best but this service is under funded in this area. We must review the budget, even if it does mean a rise in Council tax, it is an essential basic service. I am opposed to any further loss of public conveniences, if anything the centre needs more, we can't rely on the private sector. We must listen to what the public is saying to us. Officers could form a small group with members to come up with a report and bid for a proper budget. I think we should say to the Executive member that the proposed closures are completely wrong and the budget must be reviewed.

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In conclusion, the Chair stated that the report as presented by the Executive member, when examined in the context of the public consultation exercise carried out on 21^st November 2003, raises serious concerns with every member of the Panel. The Chair announced the following core recommendations, incorporating views expressed by Panel members. These core recommendations would be used to inform the Panel's final report:

1. The report be returned to the Executive member and no action be taken on the proposed closures until the findings and recommendations of the Panel are fully considered; and

2. The whole Council Executive should consider this issue in line with the wider Council responsibilities including the budget issues; and

3. Phase 2 and Phase 3 of the plan may need to be revisited; and

4. The fact that this is a service to residents, tourists and the economy must all be borne in mind regarding any future action; and

5. Costs should not be the core reason for action on this issue, user needs should also to be considered, even though it is not a statutory service; and finally

6. The requirements of the Disability Discrimination Act must be fully considered in this matter.

The Chair thanked all those who had submitted written information, those who gave verbal statements and those who had attended the Panel meetings.

The meeting ended at 5.05pm on 21^st November 2003 and 11.40am on 25^th November 2003 (reconvened session)

Chair(person)

Date Confirmed and Signed