Meeting documents
Council
Thursday, 20th November, 2003
Contributor Session
1. Introduction
1.1 A contributor's session took place on 16th January 2003 with the emphasis on suggestions for what the Council could do to assist better provision of local needs shopping. There were external contributors and also contributors who are Council Officers. Contributors were invited to make comments and then questioned by the Panel. The following took part:
Neil Menneer |
Chairman Bath Federation of Small Businesses |
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Audrey Cloet |
Chair of Action for Pensioners |
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Lyndon Craig and Kanta Dicorato |
Representatives of Guildhall Market Traders |
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Heidi Riardon |
Representative of Retail Committee, Chamber of Commerce. |
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Sebastian Long |
Media and Communications Officer, Student's Union, University of Bath. Has also lived in the centre of Bath as a student. |
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Damien Wilson |
Policy & Projects Manager, Sustainability and Economic Development |
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Howard Nowell |
Head of Environmental and Consumer Services |
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Andy Nash and Jane Kirkbride |
Valuation Services Manager and Project Leader respectively, Property Services |
2. External Contributors
2.1 Neil Menneer - Chairman Bath Federation of Small Businesses
2.1.1 I have some concerns over the sample size in the survey. Also there are some issues not covered in the survey, I would like it to have covered the following: choice; support for local retailers; individuality, character and colour of shops; and the employment of local people. There has been a decline in local needs shops eg. hardware, and also a loss of the four things listed above. There should be a balance between the High Street chain stores, which have adequate space down the main spine, and the independent retailers located off the High Street.
2.1.2 Some small retailers cannot afford to stay in Bath because of high rents, the provision of local needs is dwindling nationally because of high rents. The Council should try and support these providers. The Government is expecting the RICS (Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors) to make some changes to allow more flexibility in the leasing system.
2.1.3 There is a confusion of policy regarding Cheap Street and Westgate Street - there used to be local needs shops in this area. The Council could apply to the Secretary of State to have an area withdrawn from the normal rent structure as part of a defined policy. If this was done and the Guildhall Market was extended and improved, you would have a solution to some of the problems Bath has with local shopping provision and small independent retailers.
2.1.4 Bath needs choice, character and colour, we need to compete with Cribbs Causeway, Trowbridge, etc.
2.1.5 Questions and responses:
Q1: How would you distinguish between small independent shops and local needs shops?
A1: This is difficult. We need a mix of large chain stores and smaller shops - local needs or not - like Brighton for example.
Q2: Is the rent structure different in Brighton?
A2: Yes, there are many more independent landlords so there is healthy competition. Bath has only three major landlords. The Council's levels of ownership and control are not healthy. The majority is Council owned.
Q3: Why are there empty shops on Westgate Street even with support measures there?
A3: The area is in transition. Things in Westgate Street are not defined and specific.
Q4: Do you think people would go to a small independent tool shop (for example) or go to Homebase?
A4: The level of service would be better in a small shop than Homebase. Homebase do have parking for picking up large items though.
It is difficult for tenants in small businesses when the rent goes up and they are commited by the lease.
Q5: Are you suggesting that, as well as rent, `terms' of the lease for small businesses in Bath makes it difficult for them? What if the rent was for 12 months - would that help the risk element for small business?
A5: This would help a lot. I know the Council are constrained by the Audit Commission and Best Value. Tenants should be able to hand back the lease when rents go up beyond what is possible to pay. Terms of leases (shorter leases or break clauses) could be amended to good effect. The Council should take a long term view and be more reasonable at the peak of a cycle, especially when the Council has a good tenant at a reasonable rent. The Council should look at maximising rental income over a 10 year cycle rather than maximising income at the peak of a cycle.
Q6: What criteria would you suggest for rent?
A6: Use the market but allow a lease to be handed back if rent goes up 10-15% beyond inflation.
Q7: Society in general is time-poor, people have to shop in the evenings. Woudn't most small shops be closed at this time of day?
A7: There is a place for all types of shop and different opening hours.
Q8: Your argument is applicable to independent shops in general, not local needs shopping - what would you suggest regarding improvements in local needs shopping?
A8: Improve and extend the Guildhall market .
2.1.6 Summary - The terms of leases to small businesses could be looked at to provide more flexibility. The Guildhall market could be extended to provide for local shopping needs.
2.1 Audrey Cloet - Chair of Action for Pensioners
A request was made by Audrey Cloet for a word-for-word transcription of her contribution to be used. This follows at the end of this Annex.
2.2 Sebastian Long - Media and Communications Officer, Student Union, University of Bath
2.3.1 The most important thing for students for their local shopping needs is price and convenience. They prefer to shop in supermarkets, the needs of students in Bath are generally well met, bus routes into the centre are good, the centre is compact and there is a good range.
2.3.2 Questions and responses:
Q1: Do you shop in supermarkets out of choice or would you go to a butchers if you could?
A1: I think by choice, the majority would go to supermarkets, it is convenient and less daunting, students do not always have much shopping experience. Also supermarkets are open longer hours.
Q2: If you had particular needs for something specific eg. motor accessories, would you go to a small shop or to Homebase?
A2: Homebase, its easy to find and we would know the brand name.
Q3: Do students use the markets?
A3: Maybe to browse but not usually used for basic shopping needs.
Q4: Do you read the local press - would advertising impact your shopping habits?
A4: Most would read the student paper, not the Bath Chronicle.
Q5: Do you use internet shopping?
A5: This is used more and more.
2.3.3 Summary - Students generally have no problems accessing local shopping needs and use supermarkets more than smaller local shops.
2.3 Heidi Riardon - Representative of Retail Committee, Chamber of Commerce.
2.4.1 Businesses in the city centre cannot rely on local people alone to make purchases. The importance of independent traders within the city is high, especially as far as revenue is concerned as it will stay in the city and not be used nationally. The treatment of customers may well be a factor in them returning to some shops.
2.4.2 Local trade alongside high street stores can exist, it thrives on the continent for example.
2.4.3 Rent issues could be looked at for local needs shops to help keep them alive.
2.4.4 Questions and responses:
Q1: Does Bath have the equivalent mix of shops that certain cities in Europe have?
A1: It does at the moment, but we are losing it. Local shops are closing down and supermarkets are becoming more expensive. Holland is completely pedestrianised and they have made a provision for parking, but not centrally.
Q2: Do you believe that the lack of access for cars is killing off local shops?
A2: The next twelve months could be very important. If you can't park close enough this is a problem.
Q3: With regard to pedestrianisation, Bath is trying to make this work in the city centre, what could we do to make it better?
A3: We need better signposts to our car parks, cheaper car parks and a variation of short stay / long stay car parks.
Q4: How do you think local shops are able to compete with supermarkets and the wide choice they now provide?
A4: More choice is not necessarily better. I always try to buy local / homegrown produce which is one reason why the markets on the continent are a success.
Q5: Would you say that a key message would to be making a better use of our markets?
A5: It could encourage local business with lower rent and the Council could help in nurturing the business. A market in the right place for accessability and parking could do well. The market in Avon Street is a good concept, but is not well publicised. The Green Park market needs nurturing and the Guildhall could benefit from some publicity and decoration, at the moment it is cold looking.
Q6: What do you think of the local produce that is available?
A6: It's good, the Twerton market and the Farmers market especially.
Q7: Can the Chamber of Commerce have any influence on local shopping?
A7: It is difficult as there are traders with freeholds but when they decide to move on there could easily be a change of use or closure that we could not influence - it's a bit of a slippery slope.
Q8: Should we be looking to the use of markets more regularly for the selling of local produce?
A8: Yes, I think we should.
Q9: At times today the future has sounded gloomy, do you think we need to look at the way we lease shops in respect of ones that are categorised as local needs?
A9: I think this would help in some cases. I was not supposed to sound so gloomy. I think that if Bath lost their independent traders other businesses may fail, a lot of larger stores need local shoppers.
2.4 Kanta Dicorato - Representative of Guildhall Market Traders
2.5.1 Bath is unique for its local and independent traders, we provide a good service and are part of the community, we know and serve local people. There is a loading/unloading issue with the market, it would be useful if we could use the back of the Guildhall. It would also be useful if long and short stay car parks were better singposted in the centre. We meet with our landlord every 2 months who are often prevented from helping us with certain matters because of issues outside of their control eg. listed building consent.
2.5.2 I would not agree with short term leases but would suggest long term leases with get out clauses. You could give people the option of an 18 month lease. I would also suggest that you employ somebody who has experience in retail.
2.5.3 Questions and responses:
Q1: Why were greengrocers stalls in the Guildhall Market not successful in your opinion?
A1: It is a hard business and you need people who will commit to the long hours.
2.5 Lyndon Craig - Representative of Guildhall Market Traders
2.6.1 The Guildhall Market has served the local shopping needs of Bath for years. The environment of the market could be improved, the Council can do something about this, it has a tacky appearance. You need to return this area to a vibrant centre. It needs a fresh commercial appraisal and new ideas.
2.6.2 Small businesses have been forced out of the city as a direct result of supermarkets being introduced. The parking charges drove a lot of people to the supermarkets.
Q1: The entrance to the market gives a cold impression - is this part of the problem?
A1: Yes, there needs to be a comprehensive approach to improving the environment, not crisis management all the time or you are unlikely to attract new businesses.
Q2: Do you think the market should be more thematic?
A2: Shoppers like consistancy. I don't think it will be a provisions market again because of the competition from supermarkets.
Q3: Supermarkets are part of the world today - what would you do to smarten the market up?
A3: Remove canopies over the stalls. It needs a fresh look.
2.6.3 Summary - Lack of access for deliveries; parking problems; listed building consent problems; variation on leases; re-vamp the market but keep it as a general market; get the experience of somebody in retail.
3. Council Officer Contributors
3.1 Damien Wilson - Policy & Projects Manager, Sustainability & Economic Development
3.1.1 Previously prepared statement:
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LOCAL NEEDS SHOPPING OVERVIEW AND SCRUTINY REVIEW ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT STATEMENT The Sustainability and Economic Development Service has been involved in this Overview and Scrutiny Review from the outset supporting the process and carrying out research on behalf of the review team. It has an interest on a number of fronts, 1. As a service, Sustainability and Economic Development is responsible for leading on the development of the 10 year Economic Plan for the Bath and North East Somerset area. This review could influence the setting of the key objectives and actions contained within the plan. 2. The service has developed and maintains very close contact with the business community on a number of levels and is involved in monitoring key aspects of the performance of the local economy. 3. The service is also responsible for the delivery of community regeneration, both in terms of bidding for funding and in the direct delivery of services, schemes and initiatives. In doing so, it has a keen eye on social inclusion aspects of Economic Development and Regeneration. 4. The Economic Development Service is playing a leading role in the development and support of the emerging Local Strategic Partnership. This review has highlighted the dilemma as to whether we are dealing with an economic or social driver for a Local Needs Shopping policy and, as highlighted above, the Economic Development Service has an interest in both facets. Sustainability and Economic Development Service - Current InvolvementThe Economic Development Service is currently involved in Town Centre retail related issues through its co-ordination role on Town Centre markets, Christmas markets and through its role in promoting Bath as a tourism and shopping destination through its Tourism Development function. Its involvement in markets is historic, having being involved in running the Guildhall Market for many years. However, more recently this been developed to include street markets following a decision taken by the Council's Executive to provide weekly street markets in Bath, Keynsham, and Midsomer Norton. At the time, the objective was to provide a range of local needs shopping as well as to provide general trading opportunities that offer good value. There was full consultation on this proposal with key stakeholders, retailers, businesses, parish and town councils, etc with the result that there was general support for the principle. This review would appear to be indicating that in terms of the social aspect, i.e. the perception that City Centre residents have difficulty accessing `local shopping needs' is misplaced. Recent high profile media speculation about the demise of local needs shops in the City Centre and the lack of action to prevent this, may be saying more about the changing shopping patterns of individuals than about inaction and lack of support. The survey indicates the importance of supermarkets in providing many of the everyday shopping requirements, with everything under one roof. This seems to be particularly important for those on lower incomes. More importantly, this magnetic affect establishes the all important `critical mass' required to ensure the viability of the supermarket. Smaller shops, providing just one of the everyday shopping requirements, e.g. a greengrocer, may find it more difficult to establish that `critical mass' and consequently may find it less viable. People on higher incomes raised questions about the lack of range and choice and a desire for more traditional independent shops. But it appears unclear as to the extent to which these would be used. The question would in the case of independent traditional operators, be driven by the economic debate as to whether these types of shops should be supported to make them viable. Any policy along these lines would be fraught with danger and would need some very careful thought and sound economic reasoning. Markets, on the other hand, would appear to offer an opportunity to encourage the stimulation of the independent and indeed can provide the necessary `critical mass' to make them viable, acting as they do as an open-air supermarket in many respects. Areas of Future ResearchWhilst it would appear that the City Centre of Bath is not lacking in the supply of everyday shopping requirements, there may well be an argument for looking outside the City at our other urban centres, e.g. Twerton, Radstock and Midsomer Norton. Further research carried out in these centres based along similar lines to this study might throw up more apparent local needs shopping requirements for which a targeted response might be required. Monitoring the Provision of Local Shopping NeedsThe Economic Development Service could, if the Overview and Scrutiny Panel deem it appropriate, utilise resources available to instigate a process of continual monitoring of the retail centres concentrating on the key aspects of `local shopping needs' supply and demand, but also looking at a broad range of other indicators that would assess the performance of those centres, which might alert the Council to issues requiring future policy intervention. |
3.1.2 Questions and responses:
Q1: Could you explain what you mean when you say " Any policy along these these lines would be fraught with danger"?
A1: To define a clear policy would be difficult. There is a planning risk as you cannot restrict the retail use. An independent trader would be in the position of owning a shop and being able to use it for a number of uses.
Q2: If the premises were categorised as being for a Class A1 use, could this use be changed?
A2: We would have to be careful that if a greengrocer moved in and then sold goods of a particularly high quality, then this would not be considered local needs.
Q3: How would you consider the validity of the survey taken as around five hundred were sent out and only eighty returned?
A3: That ratio is around 15% which is good compared to an average survey return of 10%. It was also good considering the timescale involved.
Q4: It was generally considered that an average household income of £15,000 was a fair view as opposed to £10,000, would you agree?
A4: Yes, given the time. If more time had been available then maybe a wider brief could have been organised.
Q5: Would you say the results were indicative not exhaustive?
A5: Results are always open to interpretation unless you receive a 100% response and they are all truthful.
Q6: How could we make our markets more successful?
A6: It is still a little to early to tell with our new markets that have been set up, but a more co-ordinated approach, better promotion and some agreement on policies would be a starting point.
Q7: Do the goods on sale at the moment affect the numbers of people using the markets?
A7: Again this is still in it's early stages, we will see in time.
Q8: People have said they really miss not having a greengrocer in the Westgate Street / Cheap Street area of the city, how could we help with this?
A8: There is a successful greengrocer situated in the bus station area of Southgate. If we were to actively support a new business that had an effect on them, how would that look? Our department could be involved with production of policy.
Q9: Could you define local needs?
A9: The survey carried out was social. Incomes will differ and that will depend on how people shop with regard to specialist retailers.
Q10: If we were to create a policy, wouldn't it need to be of an anti-competitive nature?
A10: There are a number of legal and planning issues involved and any policy should be anti-competitive because of the reasons stated earlier with regard to the greengrocers in Southgate.
Q11: There have been some concerns from traders in the Guildhall market about what improvements could be made, have you any suggestions?
A11: I think some promotion of the choice and local produce available would be good. The Farmers market, Christmas market and general street trade have all been developing for their own reasons and a closer look at that could help.
Q12: How do you think the needs of local residents and the needs of local shops differ?
A12: Local residents of whatever income should be able to access local shopping. The markets could offer an alternative if grocers / bakers did close down.
Q13: There were very few Hardware, Haberdashery and Ironmonger shops to be found in the survey, how can we address this?
A13: Ironmongers is a term that is used less and less these days, as for the other two there are stalls in the Guildhall market that provide this service.
3.2 Howard Nowell - Environmental and Consumer Services
3.2.1 The Panel was updated on the situation regarding street trading. There are 22 street traders in the centre, they are all controlled by the street trading regime - they need consent from the local authroity. We react to people who approach us but we can also seek to have regard to local needs and are currently seeking a location for a greengrocer in the city centre. Street traders have low overheads and running costs. Around £4,000 per annum for 6 days trading would be the highest cost.
3.2.2 Questions and responses:
Q1: How does your statement about seeking to meet local needs square with the restrictions for the Council in promoting one trade over another?
A1: The policy on street traders says that they must complement traders in the area so we do get involved in looking at the type of business.
Q2: Can street vendor licensing be used to encourage particular local shopping needs provision, would there be any health and safety issues in a food stall for example?
A2: There would be no conflict there as long as the individual meets food safety standards. The issue is whether we move to a more proactive approach in this regime rather than our current reactive approach.
Q3: How many of the street traders meet local needs?
A3: Florists.
3.3 Andy Nash and Jane Kirkbride - Property Services
3.3.1 Previously prepared statement:
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LOCAL NEEDS SHOPPING 1 Background: The Council's Commercial Estate 1.1 Bath and North East Somerset Council owns a large and influential portfolio of investment property, which it refers to as the Commercial Estate. 1.2 Prior to Local Government Reorganisation in 1996, a substantial part of the Commercial Estate was owned by Bath City Council. On reorganization the Estate was extended to include various industrial estates throughout the district and some shops in Keynsham. 1.3 Although the Commercial Estate includes retail, office and industrial property throughout the district, much of the Estate is located in Bath city centre, where the Council owns approximately 60% of all city centre freeholds, much of which is prime retail property. Although the Council owns 60% of freeholds, some of the property is let on long leases to institutional investors who in turn sublet to the occupational tenant. The Council has a controlling interest in about 35% of the city centre shops. 1.4 The Commercial Estate comprises 293 retail shops, 87 office suites, 130 industrial units, 24 licensed properties, 25 market stalls and 574 miscellaneous interests including parcels of land, substations and ground rents. 1.5 The capital value of the Commercial Estate is about £140m with an annual gross income of approximately £11m. 2 Independent Traders 2.1 The Council has identified approximately 220 independent traders within its portfolio and has over the last two years taken steps to work more closely with them. 2.2 These measures include: 2.2.a) Holding open meetings to help explain the leases under which tenants occupy the property, and to explain how legislation might affect them particularly as service providers under the Disability Discrimination Act. 2.2.b) Producing a guide for tenants to explain the provisions of their leases and how they operate in practice. Tenants are invited to contact the Council at an early date if they are facing financial or other difficulties, and we can then consider ways in which the Council might be able to assist. 2.2.c) Working closely with the traders in the Guildhall Market, meeting them every two months to discuss issues of general concern. Individual traders can approach us at any time. 3 Constraints on Council's actions 3.1 The Council does not have freedom to act in any way it wishes in the handling of its Commercial Estate. The principal constraints are : 3.1.a) "Best consideration" and market rents · In letting its premises, the Council is generally obliged to obtain "best consideration", and this is usually done by seeking a market rent 3.1.b) Fairness, even-handedness and rent subsidy · In securing a market rent, the Council has a clear, auditable and justifiable position. If it were to offer rents below market value, it could open up arguments about which businesses it is being seen to support, and why. It is also likely that accusations could be made of using public funds to act anti-competitively 3.1.c) Linkage between restricted use and low rent · As has been done with Council shops in Westgate Street and Cheap Street, the range of uses permitted under lease terms can be restricted, but this can result in a lower market rent. This action needs to be used sparingly, as wider application of such a policy would compromise the income the Council receives from its property which, of course, goes principally towards the cost of front-line services 3.1.d) Our limitations on assignment · One of the regular concerns expressed by the public is that the Council does not exert adequate control over changes of use in its shops (i.e. between different types of retail use). The Council's Commercial Estate is generally let on leases which permit use as a retail shop, and if a tenant wishes to transfer the lease to a new tenant (an assignment) the Council cannot object simply because it may involve uses as another type of shop 3.1.e) position on "concessionary lettings" · The Council's position on new lettings below market value (usually to voluntary bodies) is that a market rent needs to be agreed, and any shortfall provided by way of direct grant into the Commercial Estate from the Council Service supporting the occupant's activities 4 Local Needs Shopping Policy 4.1 The property market was booming at the end of the 1980s with growth in the number of fashion shops and other multiples, apparently to the detriment of the variety of shopping offer in the City, and the then Council was keen to encourage and retain local needs shopping within the city centre 4.2 The policy was introduced in 1991 with a list of local needs uses being defined and added to the policy in 1992. It was agreed that the Commercial Estate should "promote the continued vitality of the Guildhall Market, and continue the present policy of encouraging the use of Council owned retail shops in Cheap Street and Westgate Street for the provision of local basic needs shopping and to identify the costs in pursuing these policies in individual cases, as accurately as possible". 4.3 Local basic needs shopping was interpreted as applying to retail outlets that might be regularly used by a member of the local community for basic everyday items. It was accepted that the view was open to interpretation and a list of local needs uses was therefore drawn up in 1992 and added to in 1994. Member approval was required to an application to let, or for change of use to any use not shown on the list. 4.4 The policy has continued to be applied to Council owned properties in Cheap Street, Westgate Street and the Guildhall Market. If a property is available to let, it is offered on the market inviting interest from all applicants, advising that preference will be given to retailers whose proposed use of the premises meets the the uses shown on the list of preferred local needs. If it is not possible to let to a local needs retailer then the approval of the Council members will be sought to the proposed letting. 4.5 The properties are then let on a lease which contains a restricted user clause, restricting the use of the property to that of the trader and limiting change of use under the lease to one of the other identified local needs uses. Because the lease is restricted in this way as compared with leases which contain an open retail user (simply to use as a shop) this has the effect of reducing the market rent for that unit. 5 "Local Needs Shopping" or "Local Needs Shops" ? 5.1 This O&S review relates to the availability of products which local people need day-to-day. It is not concerned with the availability or otherwise of smaller specialist shops (other than that they may be involved in satisfying local shopping needs). |
3.3.2 Questions and responses:
Q1: Do we know why some premises in Westgate Street have remained empty for a long time?
A1: Applicants have withdrawn from using certain premises for a number of reasons, gaining Listed Building consent being the main one. I wouldn't say it was just down to them not being able to meet the requirements of a local needs shop.
Q2: Are markets the way forward for local needs?
A2: The Council in many respects can have whatever it wants to afford. The Guildhall is a listed structure and that does offer some constraints, redecoration has not been deemed affordable to date.
Q3: What can we do to help the retailers in the local needs businesses?
A3: Any support for a particular trader would be difficult. We should try to make sure that the balance of traders is met. Financial support is not usually reccommended. Suggest the markets as an alternative to applicants who may encounter difficulties obtaining premises, with a priority to local needs.
Q4: Would the option of short term leases or a rent reduction help with regard to the take up of premises in Westgate Street / Cheap Street?
A4: This would have to be a Council decision as to how they might deal with the loss of revenue. Our role is to safegaurd the Council's income as part of their budget for the year, this has an impact on the services they can provide.
Q5: Would any upgrade / redecoration of the Guildhall market actually help when unloading and location are the actual problem? Can we address unloading as part of any renovations made? Is the car park at the rear an option for unloading, although I don't believe all the traders have permission to use the car park?
A5: The entrance is unnattractive so painting and better lighting could be a good start. We can look into the situation regarding the access to the car park and the possibility of delivery times to make the market more attractive to use.
Q6: Are there any changes we could make to the terms of our leases that would be of any help to traders ie. shorter terms initially?
A6: The lease is a contract sought through professional advice with consenting parties, but the Council can take a flexible approach on this as it may not be in their interest to lose good tenants. Independent traders are encouraged to contact the Property Services department as soon as they feel they might be in any financial trouble. The Guildhall market now offers traders a lease of three months if they wish as opposed to the normal five year leases, but of the twenty-five stalls in the market only four have opted to take up this option.
3.3.3 Further information provided subsequent to the contributor session by Property Services:
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Draft comments on the support currently given by the Council to its business tenants 1 To tenants in general, 2 To the non-commercial sector 3 Towards local needs shopping 1 General Support1.1 We have a Guide for Tenants which applies across the board, but it is specifically targeted towards smaller/independent business tenants, and offers : 1.1.a) Named case officer as Council contact 1.1.b) Clear explanation of the terms of any proposed or completed lease (but understanding that this cannot replace the tenant obtaining his/her own professional advice) 1.1.c) Explanation of the key processes (particularly rent reviews and lease renewals) 1.1.d) Explanation of the evidence we have used in setting a new rent either on rent review or lease renewal 1.1.e) The ability to discuss financial difficulties with the Council to try to find a satisfactory solution 1.2 We will also assist a tenant in financial difficulty by offering to market their premises and help them find a new business to take on their lease 1.3 We also offer flexible terms to tenants 2 Non-commercial occupiers in business premises2.1 Some voluntary sector or non-commercial occupants can be helped by the Council. This works as follows (assuming Council premises have been found and their occupation accepted in principle): 2.1.a) The organisation seeking to occupy the premises at below the market rent will generally be in touch with a supporting service within the Council. If not, they can be put in touch 2.1.b) The organisation decides what rent it can afford, and will discuss with the supporting service the level of support needed to bridge the gap between affordability and the market rent 2.1.c) If the supporting service and the potential occupier can pay the market rent between them, a lease at a market rent can be entered into, with the rent shared, and the supporting service paying an agreed shortfall by direct grant. The detailed mechanics of this are outside the scope of this report 2.1.d) In other words, if the Council wishes to support a particular occupation, it needs to allocate to it the necessary budget. This does away with rents below market value, and leads to transparency in where support is being given 3 Local needs shopping3.1 In Westgate St and Cheap St the Council sets a range of permissible "local needs" uses in its own shops. 3.2 When marketing a shop in these two streets, we invite offers from all, but indicate that preference will be given to local needs uses |
3.4 Audrey Cloet - Contributor and Q&A Session - Verbatim transcription
AC - My name is Audrey Cloet and I am Chair of Action For Pensioners. I would like to echo all that Mr Morgan said about the way in which this meeting has been put on, there was a lack of notice, it only arrived with us on Monday. We have therefore had no opportunity to consult our members, fortunately we had a management meeting yesterday so I did at least get access to the members. That was bad organisation.
Cllr Barrett - I didn't respond to Mr Morgan but can I just say that in fact notice went out about three weeks ago, soon after the Christmas holiday, information went out in the press, I made a statement in the press, it went out on the internet. Where the delay occurred was in terms of inviting people such as yourself to come and speak and that was based upon the need to try to get a balance between the various interests. I do apologise you didn't have more time, it in part has been due to the holiday period but nevertheless it is not quite as bad as it may have looked from your point of view. I have given three interviews this week on local radio, you may have read the contributions that were made in the Chronicle before Christmas where various people wrote in when we published the interim report. I would make that point but I do accept that, in the personal invitation to you there was a delay.
AC - Well I was also horrified by this assumption that everybody in the authority receives the Bath Chronicle.
Cllr Barrett - I agree.
AC - Or listens to the local radio, you know, I won't say anymore than that. Also, it wasn't until this morning when I arrived at this meeting that I in fact got the papers so all I could base my contribution on is merely the letter which arrived informing me that I was speaking. There wasn't even a map that defined the city centre so it was unclear about the area I was going to talk about, so that was inadequate. There was also no indication of the time allotted to the speaker, I could have thought it was 3 minutes, I had no idea.
Cllr Barrett - I apologise particularly for the maps because they were available and they do give an indication of the area.
AC - I think perhaps further Scrutiny panels might take this into account. Therefore my contribution is a bit more off the cuff than I would have wished. I wanted to make the point that small traders in the city centre need customers to make them viable and those customers may not be entirely the people who live within those boundaries of that city centre thing. Many of us from just around the edge are more likely to use the city centre for shopping, we are part of the thing that make city centre shopping viable. So to have drawn a residents outline is perhaps not particularly good. I do have a few comments on the way in which those people on the edges might be involved or might have reasons for shopping in the city centre so I hope that's not going to be outside your remit.
I have not had time to read the papers, and being at this meeting I have been listening to what people are saying therefore I have not been reading the papers. As a mathematician I am well aware of inadequacies in statistical collection and so on. But one thing that would have interested me would have been to know the proportion of older people who live in the city centre because according to what I see, a lot of our members, older people live in the city centre. They move in from outside in order to be nearer to facilities and shopping and stuff you get in the city centre rather than in the country or on the edge. So I suspect that there is a greater than average number of older people who live in flats, sheltered housing and so on in the city centre than you have taken account of. And also a greater proportion of those people do not possess a car so that we are actually talking for those people that live in the city centre, is walking. Most older people tend to shop for their needs in amounts which they can carry. If you are carrying your shopping and you are dependent on getting back home then distances matter. It's the distribution of the every day shopping that is important, the mapping of where you can get stuff. You go to the butchers one day and then the greengrocers the next day if your mobility is limited.
Greengrocers has been the most mentioned by our members, it was most regretted when the one in Westgate Street gave up. The reason for people regretting not having a proper greengrocer is that local produce seems to be cheaper than supermarkets and more environmentally friendly as these people tend to be local suppliers, smaller suppliers. There is a good feeling about shopping with individual traders as opposed to doing a big shop. I have to admit that older people, some older people, because they find convenience foods very handy, tend to shop in supermarkets for rather more expensive food, Waitrose or Marks and Spencers. I am sure if you were to take the statistics of who does the shopping in those two supermarkets, their major shoppers would be older people, nevertheless small scale shoppers. The shopping habits of local people may not be quite the same as those from across the board.
Older people don't like to carry heavy shopping from one end of the city to the other, it is very important to have suitable shops which are easily reached because even if you are coming from out of the area, you still need to carry that shopping to the car. Older people still have that problem of carrying. Going to the outer areas, its becoming more difficult to use our local shops and this is a knock on effect because the residents parking has forced the commuter parking outwards. So even if you are not in an area of residents parking as yet, you get a lot of commuter parking outside the shops. We insisted on having some designated space for shopping - 20 minutes waiting space outside our local shops at the bottom of Bathwick Hill. That is not enforced so the shop keepers protest that commuters take up those spaces and stay there all day. I have to admit that I very rarely now shop at our local shop, because I can rarely park. I would shop there but I simply can't find the space. This helped to kill off our Post Office, that has been a great loss. Included in your list is Post Office and I'd like to mention that because our Post Officer and Widcombe Post Office has closed. There is no Post Office where it is possible to park nearby, so if you want to take a heavy parcel, you have to go to the main Post Office in town or I have even been driven to go to the one at Chelsea Road or to Larkhall. Having to drive to get to a Post Office is ridiculous, it's one of the things that ought to be within reasonable distance. That is a very strong point on behalf of Action of Pensioners because Post Offices are a very sensitive area at the moment, that is a real practical problem.
There are other things which affect us, for instance I have a very heavy prescription, when I go to pick it up at the Chemist, there is nowhere I can go except Bathampton. I can't carry it to the bus station, I can't park at my Doctors (Pulteney Street) where there is a Chemist. It is outrageous that the parking there has been given to residents, especially if you have got something wrong with you. If you want to go to the Doctors you have to get someone to take you and pick you up. You can't even park in Laura Place. Chemists are difficult if you have anything heavy, you have to go out of town.
I have surveyed (roughly) my friends, colleagues, neighbours and found that our change in shopping habits dates - not from the bus gates - but from residents parking. That has made us all have a very different approach to coming into town and doing our shopping here. All possible short term parking has disappeared down Pulteney Street and so on. Many of us have taken to shopping elsewhere, I go to Corsham and to Chippenham, my neighbour goes as far as Devizes. Other people shop in Keynsham, parking is cheaper and the shops are accessible. Its driving trade out of the city centre and I think it's a great loss, also you don't get attracted to buying something else - that has gone.
Cllr Barrett - Can I just ask you if you mean people would go to Keynsham just for a pint of milk and loaf of bread - we are looking at shopping for convenience things that are required twice a week or more such as milk/bread.
AC - The sort of shopping you pop into town to get (milk etc..) a lot of people can't shop out of town because they don't have cars.
Cllr Barrett - They are the people we are looking at - their local shopping needs. To them (I am stretching the point a bit) but Sainsburys would be their corner shop.
AC - Well Sainsburys is quite a hike actually, depends on where you live. Bath also has a structure where you have hills.
Cllr Barrett - Not in the centre, the centre is what we are looking at.
AC - But you see, the centre is our local shop, that is what I have explained to you that the centre is our local shop because local shopping has become non-viable because you can't get back up the hill, you can't park outside local shops. You have to use the city centre - this has now become my local shopping. I now come in by bus to do my local shopping.
I don't use the local shops at the bottom of Bathwick Hill although they would meet my needs, there is a good general shops and butchers, a good wine merchants. They are very good, but I can't park there so one takes the bus into town and do the everyday shopping.
Cllr Mcgall - I don't understand, it's the same bus that would take you to those shops that would take you into the centre, how in your mind you have made the choice that because you can't park there, you will go past it in a bus to get to the city centre. You will catch a bus for a longer distance but not a shorter distance?
AC - If you are going to pay a bus fare, I might as well go into town where there is a wider choice.
Cllr Barrett - So choice is an important factor.
AC - Yes, choice does add to that, I am not making an argument out of that one. What I really want to point out is that the scene changes and has a relationship to parking policies. Not everyone lives near the bus stop, so not being able to park near the city centre makes a difference to the trade of city centre everyday shops.
Cllr McGall - Do you think when people shop for everyday goods e.g. milk, people make a distinction between the type of shops based on their ownership i.e. whether they are an independent local store or whether they are part of a chain, or would it be more to do with price and convenience factor?
AC -That is a mixture, sometimes people are looking for economy but on the other hand there is a great loyalty towards people who give a high level of service. Older people enjoy a good level of service. Personal commitment to customers means more than somebody at a check out, much more impersonal. Quite often people would go to a slightly more expensive butcher because he knows exactly what you want.
If there was a cheap, hop-on hop-off shopping bus, it would be much easier. Arranging yourself to do city centre shopping is difficult, the routes are difficult.
Cllr Lingard - The car is a mixed blessing, convenient but a nuisance in city centre, this impacts severely on our age group. You say you want a cheap form of frequent transport, where you live there is a frequent bus service isn't there?
AC - That is true and I use it but some people don't live by a frequent bus service, they have quite a long way to walk with their shopping.
Cllr Lingard - People live in inconvenient places because they have always owned a car in the past. You are able to access the centre for your local shopping needs - is that true?
AC - I am well aware that I am very fortunate, I don't think we should base this purely on my personal circumstances. The issues are people carrying shopping quite a way - to a car or bus. Most of us welcome pedestrianisation, it is whether you can get a car near enough to be able to carry stuff back. Your survey should have looked at the quantity of stuff people carry at a time. If you are limited to what you can carry, you do shop more frequently, that statistic comes in somewhere.
Cllr McGall - The Council runs a shopmobility scheme and some shops do home deliveries. Is there any scope in arranging a combined delivery service - should the Council be looking at these sort of areas.
AC - I think that is a brilliant idea. There is a £5 delivery charge with some, but the quantities we shop in mean this is not always worth it as we don't run up a big bill because it would not be fresh.
Action of Pensioners took part in a survey called `Shopping for One' (2001) run by a local consumer group. You might find some interesting stuff in there.
Cllr Barrett - If you are offering us a copy, we would be delighted to receive it.
Cllr Dewey - How would you sum up what you are trying to say on behalf of Action for Pensioners? I have got many messages from you this morning and I'm not sure which one you are trying to give to us?
AC - I don't want city centre business to fail and be driven out of town and a lot of people can't be driven out of town because they don't have cars. Everyday shopping MUST be available in the city centre. It won't be as viable, people will lose business. If you drive slightly peripheral people out, city centre trade will suffer.
Cllr Barrett - Supermarkets are meeting demand for choice, convenience and price, this may mean that local shops go out of business, what can the Council do to assist these local shops?
AC - Greengrocery in supermarkets is more expensive than in a local shops. The Council could help city centre shops by changing the residents parking schemes. Make sure short term parking is available.
Cllr Barrett - Thank you for your contribution.